overpowered, overplayed, best class/weapon, please nerf!?!?! =(

[Asheki]

To rebel: Its not because I haven't been dive bombed by 5 guys all at once that I haven't seen the worst of it, and believe me.. I have seen teams full of dive bombers. Its nothing to be really worried about. If anything when I look at a team filled with dive bombers.. I'm sad for them, I'm sad that they can't seem to spread out and try new things, that they can't come up with an original loadout.

The fact that 2-5 people are divebombing you doesn't make the glider rig Overpowered... its just 2 people divebombing you, if they hit.. you're supposed to die.

The guns aren't overpowered because there's 5 people shooting you all at once, you're supposed to die when that happens.. Sure you can't hatchet kill the 2 dive bombers at once.. but you can kill one of them... and that's one less to worry about. And after throwing it at the first guy you can rush under the second one. If your plan is to stand right in front of your Air Space Denier, then no wonder he's going to kill you with bullets.. that's where he was looking towards when he was flying most of the cases. Make sure you're behind him when he gets stuck in it, same as when you boomerang people.

Stunned or not, mighty body types aren't a joke to be taken head on.. unless they really don't know how to shoot at people. They also can't shoot you when you're inside buildings.. when they can't see you. Stalk them.. use your teammates as bait for them to dive bomb, then surprise them for the kill when they're weak and vulnerable. Most dive bombers are so dive happy they won't even worry about dive bombing in an area where there's no way for them to get back in the air right away.

Stay away from areas with air vents as its where they'll be most of the time, if there's cover there.. use an item like goggles to spot them as they come for some air time and shoot them down before they can fly off. Or just wait for them with another gadget handy, and get them good. Perhaps use the bear trap near air vents to get them stuck as they walk to it.. they likely won't even notice it as they run for it to get airborne then they're easy picking. Use the can of beans when they dive bomb you.. if they miss you they'll end up straight in your cloud.. taking dmg every so often and being somewhat disabled.

Got yourself some smoke bombs? Unless they actually know what they're looking for.. they'll never dive bomb what they 'can't see' most dive bombers don't look for the signs of a cloaked enemy and they'll just keep on flying, pick your targets and you'll have an easier time against the dive bombers.

Dive bombing isn't OP, its basically an easy beat all solution, and most dive bombers aren't ready to deal with things when they can't dive bomb them.. use that to your advantage.

[Joethelostone]

gotta have the thunderdragon for those damn speedy's on skates and their ****ing gatekeepers. They shoot me in the back before i can react i'm dead and also they run circles around me . so blowing them up with a Thunderdragon makes me happy.

[Joethelostone]

for those ****ing mighty gliders boomarang shotgun dead.

[STFUppercut]

Ive pretty well stopped responding to this thread because its almost turned into what it was meant to destroy. "This is overpowered/not fair makes me sad debate". The point of this thread is not to establish which builds are "annoying".

The reason you are "annoyed" by the mighty/glider is because its a solid build, hence the reason its used so frequently. Any fluid loadout used effectively by a knowledgeable player SHOULD be "annoying" = hes doin it right.

Another issue im having are the irrelevant rebuttals to my counters - no one is challenging the counters themselves or my credibility as a player in stating that they work, they are simply stating that the counters are "too hard" or that the listed counter doesnt work against 3 or 4 players at once. Regardless of what loadout the enemy is using, if they outnumber you they should win... In an ideal world full of players that all understand the game and play equally well, all players would maintain a 1-1 ratio while using diverse loadouts. No class was designed, nor any gun to dispose of an entire enemy team at once. It can be done however, but it takes player skill NOT any one item or weapon.

What you fail to understand is that the difficulty of a counter DOES NOT negate the fact that it is still indeed a counter. Regardless of how challenging a counter can be; if it is indeed a viable counter it is worth learning.

No one wants a loadout that is easy to counter, the point of customizing your loadout is to have a loadout that compliments your playstyle and gives you an edge on the enemy while putting an emphasis on your strengths as a player.

FIN.

[Rebel_Raven]

Ive pretty well stopped responding to this thread because its almost turned into what it was meant to destroy. "This is overpowered/not fair makes me sad debate". The point of this thread is not to establish which builds are "annoying".

FIN.

You wanted to destroy the notion that the Dive Bomber is annoying? Make those threads go away? I'm sorry, it's not gunna happen until taking out a dive bomber is as easy as it is to be dive bombed. As it stands, it's not. The rewards are far too high over the risks.

No one's saying your stuff doesn't work? I could have sworn I punched holes in your notions before. Must've been other threads. Well, here's your attention.


Overall, honestly, you've made poor arguments in the favor of the Dive Bomber as far as I'm concerned.
If I saw some worthwhile advice on how to counter these people reliably, I'd have stopped a long time ago. If there was a reliable counter to the dive bomb, I wouldn't even be here. Problem is, there isn't. Neither exists. Especially when there's more than one glider rig user.

Gliders aren't used by skilled players... that means bupkis when you seem them so frequently, and it's so easy to use, and so very easy to kill with.

Skilled glider rig users pull off really close range, near instant dive bombs with a simple jump, or just off a trampoline/vent. You barely have the time to look up before they're on you. Beleive me, I've seen this.

Be vigilant: Okay, ignore everything else, and kill only the gliders? Coz it takes little time for them to respawn, and then they're in the sky again. And there's prolly gunna be a buncha other people shooting at you in the meantime. They're assuredly not gunna leave you alone. Time spent dealing with them is time spent not looking up, and looking for gliders.

The glider rig users make practically no noise in use. I don't know what sort of sound system you have to hear one in the air, or from across the map as they start to use their wings.
By the time you hear them dive, you're dead, or close to it, then they finish you off.

Pillar humping? Dive bombs AOE. They don't have to hit you directly to kill you. They can quickly jockey for a better angle, too thanks to their speed.

Shoot the gliders on the move? I'm sorry, what? Shoot a fast moving, very durable target in the sky? And do it while moving? If you can do it, kudos, but I'm not that much of a crack shot, and I can't say I know many weapons that'll do it that won't slow me down. You can't expect everyone to be that good of a shot either.

Gnomes? Boomerang? I know I beat up on those methods, justly, already with facts.

A glider/heal team? I'll give you credit, this concept is new to me. Gliders tend not to care about a healer. They're out bombing, and hosing people down with bullets in between.

Deep Freeze? I treasure my mobility a lot. Unless it can shoot a mighty out of the air in one shot, odds are I'm not getting a chance to charge up another shot before they've dive bombed on me. Plus it holds about 8 rounds?

Shoot them quickly, and strafe while doing it when they're on the ground. Novel idea, but putting it into practice is easier said than done.

You're right, it's a solid build, that mighty+glider rig, and what ever they wanna use. Problem is it's a bit -too- solid, and easy to use.

To rebel:, etc.

I don't resepect, or revere glider rig addicts either, and i do tend to feel sorry for them. Doesn't change anything. They're there, and they're abusing the dive.

And, you're right. 2 people divebombing me in rapid succession doesn't make it overpowred, and should kill me. It's the fact that all the counters for the dive bomb are terrible coz they fail, and fail often, and there really is no counter for 2 dive bombers unless they're all coming from the same direction at the same time. They usually aren't.

You have to up your game while they have easy kills. Low risk, high reward on their part. That's the problem.

An "easy beat all soloution" is kinda OP, isn't it? I mean it even beats the counters for it!

I'm not gunna prattle on about all the ways your advice won't work as reliably as the dive bomb. They might work some of the time, but the Dive bomb works far more often. I've been through that, and it bloats my posts to the point no one reads them.

[RentoNM]

What you fail to understand is that the difficulty of a counter DOES NOT negate the fact that it is still indeed a counter. Regardless of how challenging a counter can be; if it is indeed a viable counter it is worth learning.

If a counter takes more skill to be as effective as what its trying to counter, than why would it be worth learning it?
The whole counters beeing worth using thing is based around the idea that GCI works like rock-paper-scissors.
In some cases this is true (boomerang beats glider rig and hard headed beats boomerang), but than again there are things that dont work like this (horse healthy, hard target, kinda bulletproof and so on) so as soon as you try to counter something by using rock only you might have an advantage over those guys going for the scissors all the time, but your at an disadvantage not only to those paper guys, but also to the once ignoring you stupid little childs game by running the generic stuff.
So now the thing with the glider mightys and rocket launcers is that they have a inherent counter to some loadouts (speedys and nimbles beeing a easy OHK without the need of aim or any other skill really), while still having the ability to run the generic stuff which you gave up trying to counter them.

I'm not trying to say your counters are not working, my point is just that the fact something can be countered does not mean there can't be a ballance problem with it.

I think all ballance issues in GCI are at least to some degree related to body types.
There are many ways to take away the smaller body types advantages: Movement can be slowed down (traps, boomerang etc) and beeing a hard target doesn't really help you when things that can instantly kill you like the TD missiles and dive attacks do splash damage that is wide enough to almost completely negate the need for aim.
To the bigger body types advantage - having more health - there really is no counter.
So basically running at least Tough is a better counter to both glider mightys and TD than anything a speedy or nimble could do, and that simply is not ballanced.

Edit: Didn't see Rebel_Ravens post before writing all this, but I agree with it 100%!

[Asheki]

Truth be told, for someone who uses the goggles ( from your sig ) I'd think you'd have much less problems with dive bombers... especially since they seem to 'flock' on you. I'd say the goggles themselves are much more powerful then the glider rig, considering that it helps a whole team of players.

And don't tell me I don't know what its like, I have used the goggles for a long while to try and make dumbass teams into better players ( from knowing where their enemies are ) while it doesn't really work, thanks to the goggles I've never really been surprised by dive bombers unless I was derping around or already preoccupied by people shooting me.

I really don't see how my techniques to counter dive bombers are 'flawed' and 'less reliable' then the dive bomb. They not only enable you to deal with the rest of the enemy team... but while dive bombers are in the air.. they're not being useful at all.. they just fly around looking for prey.. Also.. dive bombing is nearly useless in other match ups like Fumigation, and Psych warfare.. because they have to be on the ground to cap a point, grab a battery or plug it in/remove it. They can go for kills if they want, try and defend a point by bombing the people on it.. but he'll just get killed by the others protecting the point.. And many of these points in different maps are indoors anyway, thus safe from dive bombers.

Dive bombers also have to deal with poor shot register, lag, latency and people teleporting. I've been dive bombed by a mighty before and took no damage because of game derp. I'm sure he was pretty annoyed when I axed him diligently to go see elsewhere if I'm there.

All of these counters, especially the goggles are viable and very reliable.. no matter the state of 'game glitches' such as someone flying over an ASD without getting shocked ( hell I walked over one once and got shocked ).

Just spot'em and Blot'em! you'll know where they're coming from.. and you'll have fired your first magazine before they even know you're there, or trapped their path, or boomeranged / hatcheted them. It doesn't take an expert in the game to achieve it. And you don't have to be afraid of them 'jumping and instantly dive bombing you' if you keep your distances and flank them.

To rento: The mighties are also very slow when they're not using gadgets to improve their mobility, and can easilly be outflanked. It doesn't matter if he has more health then the other classes as all classes can die as quickly or as slowly in the end. Gatekeeper can easilly take out a mighty's hp in one clip before he can even turn around to shoot you. The hatchet is also the perfect mighty counter as it kills in one hit unless he's on a defense rampage or prize, and he's so big its hard to miss him.

[STFUppercut]

You wanted to destroy the notion that the Dive Bomber is annoying? Make those threads go away? I'm sorry, it's not gunna happen until taking out a dive bomber is as easy as it is to be dive bombed. As it stands, it's not. The rewards are far too high over the risks.

No one's saying your stuff doesn't work? I could have sworn I punched holes in your notions before. Must've been other threads. Well, here's your attention.


Overall, honestly, you've made poor arguments in the favor of the Dive Bomber as far as I'm concerned.
If I saw some worthwhile advice on how to counter these people reliably, I'd have stopped a long time ago. If there was a reliable counter to the dive bomb, I wouldn't even be here. Problem is, there isn't. Neither exists. Especially when there's more than one glider rig user.

Gliders aren't used by skilled players... that means bupkis when you seem them so frequently, and it's so easy to use, and so very easy to kill with.

Skilled glider rig users pull off really close range, near instant dive bombs with a simple jump, or just off a trampoline/vent. You barely have the time to look up before they're on you. Beleive me, I've seen this.

Be vigilant: Okay, ignore everything else, and kill only the gliders? Coz it takes little time for them to respawn, and then they're in the sky again. And there's prolly gunna be a buncha other people shooting at you in the meantime. They're assuredly not gunna leave you alone. Time spent dealing with them is time spent not looking up, and looking for gliders.

The glider rig users make practically no noise in use. I don't know what sort of sound system you have to hear one in the air, or from across the map as they start to use their wings.
By the time you hear them dive, you're dead, or close to it, then they finish you off.

Pillar humping? Dive bombs AOE. They don't have to hit you directly to kill you. They can quickly jockey for a better angle, too thanks to their speed.

Shoot the gliders on the move? I'm sorry, what? Shoot a fast moving, very durable target in the sky? And do it while moving? If you can do it, kudos, but I'm not that much of a crack shot, and I can't say I know many weapons that'll do it that won't slow me down. You can't expect everyone to be that good of a shot either.

Gnomes? Boomerang? I know I beat up on those methods, justly, already with facts.

A glider/heal team? I'll give you credit, this concept is new to me. Gliders tend not to care about a healer. They're out bombing, and hosing people down with bullets in between.

Deep Freeze? I treasure my mobility a lot. Unless it can shoot a mighty out of the air in one shot, odds are I'm not getting a chance to charge up another shot before they've dive bombed on me. Plus it holds about 8 rounds?

Shoot them quickly, and strafe while doing it when they're on the ground. Novel idea, but putting it into practice is easier said than done.

You're right, it's a solid build, that mighty+glider rig, and what ever they wanna use. Problem is it's a bit -too- solid, and easy to use.



I don't resepect, or revere glider rig addicts either, and i do tend to feel sorry for them. Doesn't change anything. They're there, and they're abusing the dive.

And, you're right. 2 people divebombing me in rapid succession doesn't make it overpowred, and should kill me. It's the fact that all the counters for the dive bomb are terrible coz they fail, and fail often, and there really is no counter for 2 dive bombers unless they're all coming from the same direction at the same time. They usually aren't.

You have to up your game while they have easy kills. Low risk, high reward on their part. That's the problem.

An "easy beat all soloution" is kinda OP, isn't it? I mean it even beats the counters for it!

I'm not gunna prattle on about all the ways your advice won't work as reliably as the dive bomb. They might work some of the time, but the Dive bomb works far more often. I've been through that, and it bloats my posts to the point no one reads them.

Wow... so... so... wrong haha... where do I begin? I thought I was done here... oh well... here we go.

As stated previously by me, which you quoted and misunderstood = "This is overpowered/not fair makes me sad debate". The point of this thread is not to establish which builds are "annoying". So, no I didn't intend to destroy the notion that dive bombers are annoying... As I said "The reason you are "annoyed" by the mighty/glider is because its a solid build, hence the reason its used so frequently. Any fluid loadout used effectively by a knowledgeable player SHOULD be "annoying" = hes doin it right."

There were no holes that were punched friend... The mighty/glider has plenty of weaknesses and is easy to counter - if you are struggling with it, then you are bad. The competent players ive played with commenting in this thread are not struggling with it - you are, enough said. There are PLENTY of viable counters here, some of which you may have misread... as this current post you made shows that instead of rebutting with the flow of conversation - you are disregarding all the valid input people are offering, while delivering a less than accurate portrayal of content that is infected with personal biases to account for your own short-comings.

"Especially when there's more than one glider rig user." This was one of my favorite things you said. If you are proficient in a counter that opposes the majority of the enemy team then you sir do have an advantage. If you think that two players using a similar build killing you makes a build overpowered then you are misinformed. Two gliders vs 1 player kills no faster than two snipers vs 1 player... or two swords on one player... Two players should kill one player - In this thread we are comparing 1 vs 1 encounters and while discussing balancing issues that's usually all you can compare or the immense amount of variables become very overwhelming.

As far as your opinion on gliders not being used by skilled players... you couldn't be further from the truth. One thing all skilled players have in common is versatility and adaptability, and any "skilled" player that I know learns all aspects of a game and uses them when applicable. Unless you were trying to quote me without quotations? If so I didnt say they werent used... They are however less frequent, BECAUSE people who are better know how to counter them and they lose effectiveness in a game where both sides have knowledgeable players.

"Be vigilant: Okay, ignore everything else, and kill only the gliders?" Wrong. haha. Im pretty certain your definition of the word vigilant is wrong bud. Being vigilant is defined as "keenly watchful to detect danger" - you shouldn't be ignoring anything... You are observing everything and deciding what threat should be eliminated first, then reacting... If a swordsman is slicing you apart from behind then the Glider shouldn't be focused on obviously... also use spacebar to jump! and uhhh you can move your camera with the mouse... What other basic gaming concepts do you struggle with so we can start to build you an informed foundation?

Pillar humping is extremely viable - they do more damage (similar to rockets) near the point of contact... using the pillar forces the epicenter of the hit to be further away from you, OR potentially making them hit the pillar and negating all damage, its a good gamble either way.

As far as your comment on glider/heal teams... once participate in a higher skill bracket - team play is a necessity, not only do you see many less gliders (because they are easy to counter) you will see heavy support heals on all players especially mightys as they're hitbox makes them a sitting target for competent players unlike yourself.

As far as gnomes and boomerangs go... man its the mother ****ing boomerang... are you serious? If you cant comprehend the utility of this item you need to get out haha. There is a reason it is one of the default unlocks, it restores balance to most things haha, used correctly its amazing.

Deepfreeze may not appeal to you - that's why multiple counters were offered friend.

"Shoot them quickly, and strafe while doing it when they're on the ground. Novel idea, but putting it into practice is easier said than done." to this I reply - What you fail to understand is that the difficulty of a counter DOES NOT negate the fact that it is still indeed a counter. Regardless of how challenging a counter can be; if it is indeed a viable counter it is worth learning. (hmmm that sounder familiar did I say that before?)

It is a solid build, and that's why this counter thread is up, to reduce the qq and improve the pew pew, people like you who are struggling are welcome to post, share and learn... Please refrain from delivering arguments that are less than informed in conversations you haven't fully read or even began to comprehend. We are here to help, don't fight the help... accept its warm embrace and profit.

[STFUppercut]

If a counter takes more skill to be as effective as what its trying to counter, than why would it be worth learning it?
The whole counters beeing worth using thing is based around the idea that GCI works like rock-paper-scissors.
In some cases this is true (boomerang beats glider rig and hard headed beats boomerang), but than again there are things that dont work like this (horse healthy, hard target, kinda bulletproof and so on) so as soon as you try to counter something by using rock only you might have an advantage over those guys going for the scissors all the time, but your at an disadvantage not only to those paper guys, but also to the once ignoring you stupid little childs game by running the generic stuff.
So now the thing with the glider mightys and rocket launcers is that they have a inherent counter to some loadouts (speedys and nimbles beeing a easy OHK without the need of aim or any other skill really), while still having the ability to run the generic stuff which you gave up trying to counter them.

I'm not trying to say your counters are not working, my point is just that the fact something can be countered does not mean there can't be a ballance problem with it.

I think all ballance issues in GCI are at least to some degree related to body types.
There are many ways to take away the smaller body types advantages: Movement can be slowed down (traps, boomerang etc) and beeing a hard target doesn't really help you when things that can instantly kill you like the TD missiles and dive attacks do splash damage that is wide enough to almost completely negate the need for aim.
To the bigger body types advantage - having more health - there really is no counter.
So basically running at least Tough is a better counter to both glider mightys and TD than anything a speedy or nimble could do, and that simply is not ballanced.

Edit: Didn't see Rebel_Ravens post before writing all this, but I agree with it 100%!

If you dont want a challenge then dont take the counter classes that are difficult haha...? Just build a similar class to the one you wish to counter and outplay the opposition? Countering isnt limited to a cookie cutter setup requiring you to apply a certain skillset to dispose of your enemy - as anyone who read the thread can see, this build can be countered in many diverse ways! If not build the same loadouts and outplay them... that takes skill too though haha. OR better yet, dont counter anyone because its hard and ride that negative k/d ratio while stat padding everyone else - they will be grateful.

[RentoNM]

If you dont want a challenge then dont take the counter classes that are difficult haha...? Just build a similar class to the one you wish to counter and outplay the opposition? Countering isnt limited to a cookie cutter setup requiring you to apply a certain skillset to dispose of your enemy - as anyone who read the thread can see, this build can be countered in many diverse ways! If not build the same loadouts and outplay them... that takes skill too though haha. OR better yet, dont counter anyone because its hard and ride that negative k/d ratio while stat padding everyone else - they will be grateful.

There is not one valid argument in this post, attacking me won't help your point either...
So what you're saying is that the only reason to use the counters you suggested is going for a challenge?
And if i want to have a good K/D im better of running the setups your trying to counter.
Sounds like a definition of a bad balance in a video game xD

This whole mighty+glider discussion seems to always work out the same way:
At first both sides give arguments, but sooner or later the pro mighty side runs out of arguments and starts saing "your just to bad to counter them! stop crying and learn to play blablabla!"
So just to get this out of the way, so we can all go back to discuss like adults here:
My K/D in TDM is 2.4 and I'm on rank 6 on the Fumigation leaderboards (PC) having less than 100 dive bomb kills, so me complaining about the mighty+glider is not whining because I can't beat them, its just a objective observation.

What you just don't seem to understand is that balance is not about a good player still beeing able to beat a bad player but about how much closer the bad player comes to the good players success by abusing a game mecanic and how easy this makes it for him to ruin other bad players fun.